Is this what this is about?

[Alan Warn]

I am writing this with huge reservations. I know I'll regret it, but I can't help myself. Please try to understand that I'm not trying to piss anyone off with this.

I understand Carl and Andy. They are extremely competitive and are willing to do whatever it takes to win anything they are involved in. They probably have no idea why they are like this and can't help it. I would guess that they have even tried to take it easy in many competitions, and not push it, but their competitiveness gets the better of them, and the switch gets flipped, every time. They probably couldn't enter a sack race without trying to win at any cost. Combine that with natural ability and skill, and they will always be out front in any and every event. Most people do not understand this and no amount of explanation will make them understand. I have never met these guys, but I know them. They can't come in second place.

One thing you have to understand is that this is racing karts, with racing motors. This is a sport, and it will attract competitive people. That's just the facts.

I am not one to cast blame, and blame is worth nothing in my book, unless you learn from it, and change things to keep from having the same results. There are many ways to do this.

You can make a rule that there has to be 20 feet between everyone on the track at all times. Everyone would have to pace the slowest guy on the track. Maybe this is the best solution for many involved in vintage karts.

You can add bumpers, roll bars, air bags, seat belts, and whatever you want to protect these people from themselves. To me, this is a poor solution. You can't protect people from themselves. It never works.

You can have a private and exclusive club and exclude whoever you want. I think there will always be someone who wants to be out front, and take over for those who were excluded. There is always someone who wants to be the best. Your videos would be pretty boring too.

The best option, in my opinion, is to make the track safer. I'm talking about simple and free solutions. In this case, it is very clear that if the corner wasn't so close to the finish line, the crash would have never happened. They really didn't have time and distance to slow down enough for the corner, and as Andy said, there was a bump, so they changed their line to increase their speed to get the win. Just moving the finish line about 20 feet would have given them enough space to slow enough to make the corner. They focused on the flag, and were going to worry about what was after it, later. They probably never gave that corner any thought in the least.

Once again, I'm not trying to irritate anyone. I'm just trying to help explain why it happened. It is so clear to me why it did, and why Andy and Carl have no problem with the results. The only ones who are angry are those who are worried that they could have been involved, or that they will be in danger by these types in the future. I have been to thousands of races of every kind, and I can't think of one race that the guys in front took out lappers, but I know it does happen, but I'd guess that it the likelihood is much greater, if there is a title or money involved. I'd bet that Carl and Andy would have taken other racers into consideration, and placed their safety at a higher regard than winning. It always over rules the trophy.

In any kind of racing, there will always these type of guys. When there are two of these type of guys, it's a race. Expect it. Set up the finish line with that in mind. Set up the entire track with that in mind.

Don't be angry if you have a racing event with race karts, equipped with racing motors, and people actually race. They will.

[Carl Haydt]

Alan,You're ABSOLUTELY dead on with what you wrote!
You're obviously a competitive person yourself or you would never have the insight to write what you did,I respect that in a person.
I only hope the people reading your post will keep reading it until they understand what you wrote.
They need to understand there's more then one reason why a person gets behind the wheel of a vintage kart and they need to respect that even if they don't agree with it.
The other comment you made that again is ABSOLUTELY correct is "I'd bet that Carl and Andy would have taken other racers into consideration, and placed their safety at a higher regard than winning."
What the people who posted the negative comments didn't know is that the other drivers on the track with Andy & me run with us every Sunday at Oreville so they were all competitors! There were NO "beginners,juniors,ect" on the track with us.
Thank You Alan for posting this. Carl

[Tom Smith]

Carl, a lot of people here don't care if you have to win at whatever the cost, what they are worried about is that some self absorbed shit head racing for what ever the cost takes them out also. We've seen it happen. Tom

[steveohara]

Carl,

Check your helmet... it must be cracked!

You are showing symptoms of residual brain damage otherwise you would be mad at the guy who dumped you on your head rather than the folks concerned about your well being and that of the hobby we all enjoy.
Get well soon
Steve O'Hara

[david a luciani]

wow,

for the first and hopefully the last time i'm gonna suggest freezing a thread.

it seems that each side is going for the win in this disagreement and it's really serving no purpose except to vent.

i know all the guys on each side and strangely i think they'd all get along in person.

anyway i'm bailing on any opinion and hope that everybody cools off.

Agree to disagree i guess.

dave

[Dominic Salvato]

What it's all about is that your lucky you have someone to run with. I'm here in Anchorage and it seems no one wants to run something that doesn't have enough cubic inches to pull, as they say in Alaska, a wh*re off the piss pot.

From the show karts to the race and in race videos, all of you guy's are putting on a hell of a free, to the spectator, show.

[Larry Collins]

Dear Rob,

Your analysis and comments on the recent vintage kart accident in Pa has elicited a great deal of discussion on the REAR message board. Opinions regarding vintage kart racing and modifications to vintage karts vary widely, which is part of what makes our hobby so fascinating. Because not everyone likes the same thing, some are only interested in exhibiting pristinely restored vintage karts in strictly original configuration, while others enjoy racing vintage karts which have been modified to various degrees. Perhaps it is inevitable that some may criticize others due to passionate differences in opinion, but I think most would agree that exception could be fairly taken to those who express their hubris in vulgar terms, and who ridicule others. Thanks in advance for allowing me the time and space to rebut statements made by one of those individuals.

Dear Tom,

Vintage karts are and will continue being raced competitively, and many, including those I own, have performance enhancements which are not strictly "period correct", notwithstanding the objections of certain supercilious, small-minded folks such as yourself.

In response to a recent video taken of three men racing vintage karts at a remote track in Pa. who have an accident during their event, your dredge up a photo of one of the vintage karts owned by a dear friend of mine, will Farmer, which you took in Will's pit at the first Quincy race held nine years ago. From the angle of the shot, the picture was obviously taken surreptitiously, for the purpose of maligning and ridicule. Despite your poor photography, I think Will Farmer's kart is beautiful. Will and his karts must have deeply wounded your poor, defective psyche, for you to keep that photo handy for publication for nine whole years.

I take particular exception to your recent post on the REAR message board, wherein you describe both Will Farmer and the kart which you photographed as being "f___ed up"; I am dismayed that this kind of vitriolic and vulgar personal attack is tolerated on what is purported to be a venue for rational, sportsmanlike discussion. you also go on to generally castigate an entire group of vintage kart enthusiasts, because they don't share your views; specifically, those dreadful "VKA pukes". How childish it is to take such exception, and to be so upset by those who would be so bold as to add Dunlop tires, oil-bath clutches, and custom seats to their karts.

Will Farmer and his karts are directly responsible for my family's participation in both vintage and modern karting. In the fall of 2002, I purchased a Mac 91 to put on myu old kart for my son. I contacted FMC karting, and Will invited me and my son down to his shop, where he examined my engine, and provided everything I needed to get it mounted on the kart and running. Will even set the carb needles for me, and the engine started and ran beautifully on his initial settings! Wherever Will has taken his karts, they have been crowd pleasers, and no individual has done more to stimulate interest in vintage karting than Will Farmer. In a conversation I had with Faye Pierson at the event in '03 at Quincy, she described Will as a "gentleman and a good ambassador" for vintage karting. If anyone could legitimately criticize Will, it would be Terry Ives, whom Will caused to spin out and flip during his accident at the event at Quincy in '02. Instead, Terry graciously accepted this as something that can happen on a racetrack, and Will and Terry remain on good terms to this day. What a tremendous example of sportsmanlike behavior exhibited by Terry Ives in the wake of this incident.

By contrast, the intolerant attitude you and a few others have, tends to drive participants away. If this were not the case, there wouldn't be any "VKA pukes" for you to ridicule and complain about. Too bad we all aren't as enlightened as you; how is it that you have obviously come to believe that your opinion is so morally superior and correct? If karts like Will's and mine are the type you would like to see "gone", then you are doomed to eternal frustration, because we intend to continue racing, displaying, and enjoying them in their presently "bastardized" configuration, despite the opinion and opposition of a few people like you. For your viewing pleasure, I have attached some photos (if this website attachment quota permits at this time) of all three of the karts Will and I brought to Quincy '04, as they were featured in the December, 2004 edition of NATIONAL KART NEWS; note the caption at the bottom of page 50 which describes our karts as "3 beautiful machines".

Yours very truly,

Larry Collins

Owner of the 3rd #11

[Dan Flanders]

Dear Larry:
When most of us go to a "vintage" kart event don't you think we should actually see vintage karts?

[Larry Collins]

At all the vintage events I've been to, there have been a variety of karts in different stages of modification, ranging from "period correct" to nearly as extreme as the machine in your photo. Although the machine in your photo isn't to my taste either, I can appreciate the fact that someone spent a lot of time, effort, and money building it.

If seeing anything but a totally period correct kart upsets you, you can always avert your pretty little eyes.

Best,

Larry

[david a luciani]

WOW,

i tried not to comment but WOW
SERIOUSLY???

Now we'll sugar kote the tonka toy monster karts as ENHANCED vintage karts???
i get the need for speed and the rush that comes from it.
what i don't understand is why you insist on being classed a vintage kart.
that would be alot like taking a street rod to a Concours event and wanting to be judged.

Larry,

as i don't know you personally i considered the unfairness of speaking on your comments.
but then again you did vent in an open forum.
If your karts look anything like the farmers may i suggest you grow a set and get into modern racing.
the only "vintage" parts on those monster karts are based on the motor , the frame and maybe the clutch.

on your crew:
i'm sure farmer Brown and all the monster kart guys are nice fellows.
But their take on vintage karts is clearly a modern open wheel racing kart with older engines.
I personally think as a racing machine they are very cool and have a place in karting.
as a spectacle at a vintage event they could even serve as a draw much as a circus has a side show.

so in my mind you could and should work toward developing a new class of open wheel kart racing on a regular schedule with modern karts..
it would be cool and a little dangerous too.

Instead you're taking a slot in vintage meets calling yourself a vintage karter.
my problem with that is when the little dangerous up and kills or cripples somebody the insurance company isn't gonna care that you're a sort of vintage karter with an "ENHANCED vintage KART".

they won't care about the 40 mph historics that were also there
they won't care about the vintage correct sidewinders and rear engine karts
or the period correct dual karts and show pieces or rats like mine.
ALL THEY CARE ABOUT IS RISK AND MONEY PAID OUT.
Then all our collective butts will be in a sling.

Carl who i consider a friend is nowhere's near you or your crew in your version of vintage karting.
his karts aren't "ENHANCED" and are period correct mostly and their clubs insurance is aware that there's open wheel karts running.
They've run the karts pretty much the same for the last thirty years.
they have fun with equipment that isn't "ENHANCED" and if you were there you'd swear it was thirty years ago.

Look carefully at his club pix and the karts they're running no tonka toy looking i'm the big dog enhancements to be seen.
the TONKA TOY tires, super wide axles, modern clutches,microns, modern steering wheels ,brakes ,and modern seats surely aren't vintage in any sense of the word.

So please don't try to include Carl in your crew.
Carl is a competitive guy racing vintage karts the same as he did thirty years ago.
he just never stopped using his vintage karts.

As for being enhancements i'm puzzled with your word choice.
the enhancements you speak of are trying to make a frame do things it wasn't designed to do.
If a plastic surgeon was to enhance a person like the monster karts are enhanced he'd end up sued.
As a vintage kart the tonka toy set start looking like fading sad hollywood movie stars do near the end of their carrier.

so to me what you guys could and should do is separate yourselves as monster or open wheel karts .
Run the old motors if you like and explore the possibilities of what can be done now with the older stuff.
be death defying and fast i know that thrill and sometimes even go there myself still.
BUT PLEASE, don't call yourselves vintage karts.
leave that name for us boring people who want to build vintage karts much as they were built back in the day.

dave