WB 580 5PORT ON ALCOHOL?

[DAN HELDRETH]

IS IT POSSIBLE TO RUN A 580 5 PORT ON ALCOHOL? I UNDERSTAND THAT ALCOHOL NEEDS ALOT MORE
FUEL AND AIR TO RUN RIGHT. I KNOW THAT THERE ARE BENEFITS TO RUNNING ALCOHOL: ENGINE RUNS COOLER, MORE HORSEPOWER AND EASIER ON PARTS. DO I NEED TO INCREASE THE COMPRESION RATIO? CAN I GET A SINGLE CARB TO WORK TO FLOW ENOUGH AIR AND FUEL?

IF THIS WON'T WORK WHAT CARB DO I NEED OTHER THAN THE STOCK TILLOTSON (HL 88A)?
IS THERE A CARB THAT WILL LET THE ENGINE RUN BETTER.

HAS ANYONE SUCCESSFULLY SLEVED A 5 PORT ENGINE? SOMEOME HAS PORTED THE INTAKE AND EXHAUST
PORTS. MY ENGINE GUY THINKS HE CAN SLEVE THE BLOCK. WHATS THERE TO LOSE?

I AM BUILDING A 1961 SIMPLEX CHALLENGER RACER MARK 16 FOR MY SON I NEED SOMETHING DURABLE
AND "FAST" THATS MY SONS WANT.

THANKS FOR YOUR TIME. PLEASE LET ME KNOW IF I AM GOING DOWN THE WRONG ROAD WITH THIS BUILD.

[ted johnson]

It's certainly possible to run any West Bend on alky. You'll need to scout around for a high compression, preferably thin-ring piston. You need the West Bend Vee reed manifold and reed cage. Find a larger HL alky modified carb with a larger throttle bore. The HL-293A is factory alky modified, and very reliable. They show on eBay from time to time. You can definitely port the 580 5 port, but why would you need to sleeve it? The factory sleeve is easily modified. The factory rod and crank are just fine as is. You'll need to advance the ignition timing.

[DAN HELDRETH]

I WAS TOLD BY TWO DIFFERENT ENGINE BUILDERS THAT PORTING THE PORTS IS BAD AND WONT RUN RIGHT. THE PORTS ARE PORTED REALLY BIG. WHO EVER DID IT PORTED THEM HIGHER AND LOWER ON THE INTAKE AND EXHAUST.
I HAVE THE VEE REEDS THAT CAME WITH THE 5 PORT ENGINES AND THE BLOCK STUFFERS ALSO.
YOU TEND TO SEE TWO AND THREE CARBS ON ENGINES LIKE THE 820 WB WHEN THEY ARE RUN ON ALCOHOL. I UNDERSTAND THAT THESE ARE LARGER ENGINES AND THEY TAKE MORE AIR AND FUEL TO RUN THEM.

[ted johnson]

Porting a West Bend is standard procedure, and has been successfully done thousands of times. However, if your ports are already done incorrectly, you need to find a new block. Resleeving will end up very expensive, and the transition between the poorly ported aluminum, and the newly drilled ports will cause turbulence. You'd be better off with a well modified 3 port, than a cobbled-up 5 port. Just resleeving it ain't gonna cut it. You need to start out with a single carb. You can work up to the dual manifold once you get more running time, and become used to the engine's needs. Remember that the 580 is a cross-scavenged engine, and only the very best engine builders can make a 5 port run as fast as a well tuned stock 100cc McCulloch. Their porting scheme just is not as good. The West Bend 610 loop scavenged engine was introduced to cure that deficiency. Even a well tuned stock 610 will not run with a well tuned stock Mc91.

[Mike Reller]

Dan, Everything Ted says is correct. The 580 can be made to run faster, but fast is relative. We raced one of the fastest 580's I've ever seen in the early 60's. It would run with a stock McCuloch 7, but was straining to do so. A Simplex is not exactly the ligtest Kart out there (had one) and the dead axle is not advantagious to performance. Porting the 580 is a real pain because of the integral head. I have no idea if there is anyone out there who could do it. As far as bang for your buck go's the 580 is relatively awful. If this is a project that you have your heart set on, go for it. In the end though it's like running a full size 49 Mercury with a flathead against Model A's with small block Chevy's.

[david a luciani]

ws it me i'd build the 580 and just run it don't worry about fast.
you can always sell off the motor later and put a stronger one on it.
if you're looking for period correct but faster you could just convert a mcculloch saw.
you'll get an engine that has available parts and a little punch.
typically i buy them for between 20-100$.
we've written a ton in this forum about converting them.

dave

[steve miller]

dan ..being the owner of over 40 west bends both 3 and 5 porters..by reading what you have wrote allready im guessing you dont have 20 or 30 yrs worth of vintage racing and building your own race motors ..west bends are simple motors but theres few tricks just like everything else raising exhaust is common and opening up the intake ..but when they get in there and square them up big enough to throw a cat threw usally motor is junk ..stock piston and rod will do bout anything youll ever need trust me if your kid is thinking reel fast it aint gonna happen with a west bend no mater who built it ..i guess alot depends on where your racing and what your racing against simplex nice kart ..i own 5 or 6 myself not a good handling kart compared to most ..rupp dart,fox feather light ,mcculloch r1.all very hard to beat ..put it together ride it then when you get little more involved and expirianced worry about going faster good luck and have fun ..P.S. i have 5 or 6 fresh mc49s id trade you motor for motor ..

[DAN HELDRETH]

I SHOULD HAVE GIVEN YOU GENTLEMEN A LITTLE HISTORY ABOUT THIS KART. IT BELONGS TO MY SON
WHO IS 13 YRS OLD. THE GO KART WAS GIVEN TO HIM BY HIS GRANDPA 3YRS AGO FOR HELPING
BUILD A STEEL BUILDING WITH HIM. HE SPENT JUST ABOUT EVERYDAY OF HIS SUMMER BRAKE WORKING
FOR GRANDPA. GRANDPA SURPRIZED HIM WITH THIS KART FOR HELPING. THE SIMPLEX IS ALL STOCK
AND VERY COMPLETE. IT IS WELL OPTIONED WITH BLACK AND WHITE SEAT, CHROME STEERING WHEEL,
AND A REAR BUMPER. THIS KART CAME WITH TWIN 580 5 PORTS A LEFT AND A RIGHT HAND ROTATION. IT ALSO CAME WITH 84 TOOTH SPROCKETS AND A LIVE AXEL I ASKED MY SON WHAT HE WANTED TO DO WITH THE KART AND HE SAID HE WANTED BACK TO STOCK APPEARANCE BUT WE CAN MAKE IT GO "FASTER". SO THATS WHAT WE ARE DOING. THIS KART WAS HANGING ON THE WALL OF GRANDPAS BARN FOR 30 PLUS YEARS UNTOUCHED. JUST NEEDS RESTORED$$$$$$.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT MUCH ABOUT 2 STROKE ENGINES, BUT I HAVE LEARNED ALOT IN THE PAST.
I KNOW THAT I DONT WANT TO SWITCH BRAND ENGINES BECAUSE IT IS REALLY NOT UP ME AND IT IS WANT WAS STOCK ON THE KART. I WANT IT TO RUN RIGHT AND LOOK NICE. I KNOW THAT THIS KART IS NOT GOING TO BE COMPEDITIVE. IT WILL REALLY BE AN OPEN TRACK DAY KART, SOMETHING FOR MY SON TO PUTT AROUND ON AND HAVE FUN. I THOUGHT THAT RUNNING ON ALCOHOL WOULD MAKE MORE POWER AND RUN ALOT COOLER WITHOUT CHANGING THE OUTTER APPERANCE OF THE KART.

IF I WANT TO GO FAST I WILL BUILD SOMETHING THAT IS ALOTTT LIGHTER THAN A SIMPLEX

[Mike Reller]

You are correct about alcohol having distinct advatages. The down side is that it does not store well, (absorbs water). Give terrible mileage (uses about twice as much per mile). Requires oil that is made specificly to mix with alcohol. It must also be flushed out of the engine after each use to prevent all sorts of problems. As for the reason you want to run this kart and engine, love it. The family thing trumps any quest for speed. Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

[Rob Voska]

Faster is relative. When you get it on a fixed length track instead of a big open parking lot or street it should run just fine. A pair of 580's should run pretty well. There are a lot of hop up stuff you can do also.

Have you tried checking the timing to make sure it's set up right?
Have you tried smaller sprockets on the axle or 1T more on the clutch?
Have you tried V reed intakes?
Have you tried higher flow air cleaners?
Have you tried lightening bolt exhausts instead of the stock headers?

I went to the track last year with a stock 580 & changed one thing at a time. The small changes make a difference & when added together will make an even bigger improvement.

Always remember to "ring" a 580/700 flywheels so you know if they are cracked or safe to run.