Andy,
I don't know you and my comments are not intended as a personal attack on you, only on the one poor decision that played out on that tape.
It's just plain scary to read that you actually planned that move.
Here I was thinking it was just a mistake in the heat of the moment.
It's great that you and Carl are friends and can laugh about an event that could have crippled him for life but that does not make the poor decision any less dangerous.
The pictures speak for themselves and you can rationalize your actions any way you choose to suit your needs but in the end another driver was put in harms way as a result of your determination to "win" a silly little vintage kart race.
Honestly, was it worth seeing your friend tossed end over end and his kart destroyed to get that $3 trophy?
I made the first post and I make this reply only to offer up a "teaching moment" to anyone bothering to read this. Our hobby still involves speeds and risks that can injure drivers and equipment if we lose perspective on what we are doing on the track. None of us are immune from unexpected outcomes when we push the limits with these old machines... I know this too well having recently flipped one over on my head damaging a friends beautiful Bonanza he let me drive when a small mistake and an unexpected track condition combined to turn fun into a bent frame and a bunch of bruises. I should have been more careful.
I guess the real question for you is would you do the same thing again if you could do it over?
I hope not.
Regards,
Steve O'Hara
Is this what this is about?
Moderator: Rob Voska
-
steveohara
- Posts: 411
- Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 2:29 am
- Vintage Karting items owned: 1969 Bug Sprint Mc 91B1
1965 Dart Gran Prix twin Mc100s
1963 Bug Scorpion ESll Mc45
-
morris sanford
- Posts: 3
- Joined: Wed Apr 20, 2011 7:08 pm
- Vintage Karting items owned: clark kart
- User Agreement: Yes
Re: Is this what this is about?
First let me say I hesitated to post this; I'm new to vintage karting, so I don't want to talk about something that the rest of you have a lot more knowledge about than I do...
That said, I've been to a number of Vintage Automobile racing events over the years. There are some people out there who are really running hard, and it's very enjoyable to watch, look at the cars, socialize and talk to the participants. The people who are out for a leisurely drive know who the guys that are there to run hard, and the organizers do try and discourage reckless behavior, but it's rare someone gets booted/ black flagged or banned from events. I've never seen it happen.
There is one thing I hear consistently from the vintage automobile/ historic racing crowd however, that I really think represents an overall attitude that would be beneficial in the Vintage Karting community. "We're here to have a good time; enjoy each others company, get in some track time, turn a hot lap here and there when conditions permit, but most of all we try not to break each others stuff or get hurt"
As someone relatively new to the hobby I had the notion (and still do) that the above quote is probably true of most people who are doing this for a hobby. Let's have fun, relive our youth a bit, get a thrill or two. We can still go fast, but a little separation at speed, exercising good judgement and being prudent will not make it less fun. If you're looking to "really race" vintage karting is not the best venue to fulfill that objective.
I like to go fast and have done it in sports cars at organized events, but the cost of running real cars at speed, and doing it safely is what drew me to vintage karting. I just can't afford to do it, even in Miata spec classes, field a car for a season is exxxxxppppeeeennnnnnsssssiiiiivvvvveee.
If you really want to race and can't afford the big cars, I think it should be done in the newer karts, where the technology and equipment have made it much safer. The karts are ugly yes; but definitely safer. The only thing that bothers me about the new karts outside of their looks is that all those plastic bumpers are giving rise to what I call the "stock car syndrome" Kids bump steering the guy in front of them, running along side and knocking other racers off the line... it does not foster civil behavior, nor really improve your driving skills. But I digress...
I don't think anyone wants to see other folks get hurt. Take it easy. Back off a bit... give way... be civil to each other... enjoy a meal with friends... I hope that's what I'll get to do when I attend my first event. I sure don't want to bend what I spent the last 8 months working on.
My two cents. I'm glad everyone's all right. Hope to see some of you at a vintage karting event.
That said, I've been to a number of Vintage Automobile racing events over the years. There are some people out there who are really running hard, and it's very enjoyable to watch, look at the cars, socialize and talk to the participants. The people who are out for a leisurely drive know who the guys that are there to run hard, and the organizers do try and discourage reckless behavior, but it's rare someone gets booted/ black flagged or banned from events. I've never seen it happen.
There is one thing I hear consistently from the vintage automobile/ historic racing crowd however, that I really think represents an overall attitude that would be beneficial in the Vintage Karting community. "We're here to have a good time; enjoy each others company, get in some track time, turn a hot lap here and there when conditions permit, but most of all we try not to break each others stuff or get hurt"
As someone relatively new to the hobby I had the notion (and still do) that the above quote is probably true of most people who are doing this for a hobby. Let's have fun, relive our youth a bit, get a thrill or two. We can still go fast, but a little separation at speed, exercising good judgement and being prudent will not make it less fun. If you're looking to "really race" vintage karting is not the best venue to fulfill that objective.
I like to go fast and have done it in sports cars at organized events, but the cost of running real cars at speed, and doing it safely is what drew me to vintage karting. I just can't afford to do it, even in Miata spec classes, field a car for a season is exxxxxppppeeeennnnnnsssssiiiiivvvvveee.
If you really want to race and can't afford the big cars, I think it should be done in the newer karts, where the technology and equipment have made it much safer. The karts are ugly yes; but definitely safer. The only thing that bothers me about the new karts outside of their looks is that all those plastic bumpers are giving rise to what I call the "stock car syndrome" Kids bump steering the guy in front of them, running along side and knocking other racers off the line... it does not foster civil behavior, nor really improve your driving skills. But I digress...
I don't think anyone wants to see other folks get hurt. Take it easy. Back off a bit... give way... be civil to each other... enjoy a meal with friends... I hope that's what I'll get to do when I attend my first event. I sure don't want to bend what I spent the last 8 months working on.
My two cents. I'm glad everyone's all right. Hope to see some of you at a vintage karting event.
Re: Is this what this is about?
Great third post Morris.
-
Dan Flanders
- Posts: 256
- Joined: Sat Jun 16, 2007 3:12 am
- Vintage Karting items owned: Pimped out Yerf-Dog with 22" spinners
- User Agreement: Yes
- Location: South of the Sweet Tea Line
Re: Is this what this is about?
Here is a group of folks that have been running vintage events since '68. http://www.csrgracing.org/
Check out their philosophy statement:
"CSRG represents an attitude that has a lot to do with the appreciation, preservation, and use of vintage cars and relatively little to do with conventional racing, which defines the car as a tool with which to win at all costs.
Our racing also provides a margin that stresses the irreplaceable nature of a piece of racing history as taking precedence over any individual’s need to win.
CSRG does not and will not discourage competition, provided it is done with safety and respect for one’s fellow drivers. Cooperation between the fast and the not-so-fast is mandatory and in keeping with the concept of maximizing enjoyment for all.
Vintage racing, as defined by CSRG, is very different from other forms of racing in that it is based upon participation, not victory. The veteran respects the novice’s right to the track, and the novice respects the veteran’s right to motor to the extent of his or her ability and good judgement. Formal licensing is replaced by mutual respect for each other’s rights.
The participant whose only purpose is winning has no place in the CSRG structure."
"THE CSRG ATTITUDE
CSRG is about the appreciation, preservation and use of vintage cars in a racing environment, rather than in a museum.
CSRG members and guests are expected to acknowledge and appreciate drivers who can exhibit a car’s potential without placing themselves or others at risk while doing so; but also to equally value drivers who drive at a lesser degree of performance but give us the chance to see their cars on the track. At CSRG, the irreplaceable nature of a piece of racing history takes precedence over an individual’s need to win, and participation is more important than finishing position. Individuals who cannot distinguish or appreciate the difference between our philosophy and “real” racing should not participate in our events. Cooperation between the fast and not so fast is mandatory and in keeping with the concept of maximizing enjoyment for all.
In a sense, we can do anything we want in Vintage racing, provided we don’t cause problems for anyone.
The Vintage Racing idea got started with appreciating old, obsolete, imperfectly grand cars. We can learn the craft of working with their strengths and weaknesses in a considerate, well-mannered way.
If lap times and finishing positions are what dictate the success of our weekend, then you’re In the wrong place. SCCA exists for that purpose. The guys we see on TV are in the seat almost every day, while we might get 10 or 12 hours in a whole season. We need to consider that before making that big TV-inspired move. Let’s not run into things or into each other.
Situational awareness is an apt expression. If you’re not completely aware of what’s going on in and around your car, you need to slow down until you am. Let awareness govern your speed. Know what’s going on around you at all times."
Check out their philosophy statement:
"CSRG represents an attitude that has a lot to do with the appreciation, preservation, and use of vintage cars and relatively little to do with conventional racing, which defines the car as a tool with which to win at all costs.
Our racing also provides a margin that stresses the irreplaceable nature of a piece of racing history as taking precedence over any individual’s need to win.
CSRG does not and will not discourage competition, provided it is done with safety and respect for one’s fellow drivers. Cooperation between the fast and the not-so-fast is mandatory and in keeping with the concept of maximizing enjoyment for all.
Vintage racing, as defined by CSRG, is very different from other forms of racing in that it is based upon participation, not victory. The veteran respects the novice’s right to the track, and the novice respects the veteran’s right to motor to the extent of his or her ability and good judgement. Formal licensing is replaced by mutual respect for each other’s rights.
The participant whose only purpose is winning has no place in the CSRG structure."
"THE CSRG ATTITUDE
CSRG is about the appreciation, preservation and use of vintage cars in a racing environment, rather than in a museum.
CSRG members and guests are expected to acknowledge and appreciate drivers who can exhibit a car’s potential without placing themselves or others at risk while doing so; but also to equally value drivers who drive at a lesser degree of performance but give us the chance to see their cars on the track. At CSRG, the irreplaceable nature of a piece of racing history takes precedence over an individual’s need to win, and participation is more important than finishing position. Individuals who cannot distinguish or appreciate the difference between our philosophy and “real” racing should not participate in our events. Cooperation between the fast and not so fast is mandatory and in keeping with the concept of maximizing enjoyment for all.
In a sense, we can do anything we want in Vintage racing, provided we don’t cause problems for anyone.
The Vintage Racing idea got started with appreciating old, obsolete, imperfectly grand cars. We can learn the craft of working with their strengths and weaknesses in a considerate, well-mannered way.
If lap times and finishing positions are what dictate the success of our weekend, then you’re In the wrong place. SCCA exists for that purpose. The guys we see on TV are in the seat almost every day, while we might get 10 or 12 hours in a whole season. We need to consider that before making that big TV-inspired move. Let’s not run into things or into each other.
Situational awareness is an apt expression. If you’re not completely aware of what’s going on in and around your car, you need to slow down until you am. Let awareness govern your speed. Know what’s going on around you at all times."
-
Carl Haydt
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:52 pm
- Vintage Karting items owned: just enough to keep me racing
Re: Is this what this is about?
OMG! Webster got it WRONG!!!!
Their definition of
"RACING": A race is a competition of speed, against an objective criteria, usually a clock. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed.
OH I get it now..........Different groups will just adopt THEIR OWN definition of the word RACE to suit their own needs! They'll just put the word in their title & then go on to say their NOT about competition or speed?
The CSRG association does absolutely understand one thing correctly when they wrote: "The guys we see on TV are in the seat almost every day, while we might get 10 or 12 hours in a whole season. "
That means you can't possibly compare someone who RACES ............(not just puttering around the track) vintage karts weekly for 21 events that consist of :(2 warm-up sessions/10 laps each+a heat/10 laps+ the feature/15 laps) 45 laps each event x 21= 945 LAPS PER YEAR! That does NOT include any practice laps taken after the days event is over OR any other events at any other tracks during the year! This is driving a vintage kart/engine combination on skinny hard tires! .........to someone who attends maybie 1 or 2 "exhibition" events a year!
Doesn't much matter how many "national championships" you won when it was over 45 YEARS AGO!
Last time I looked the calendar said 2011.
Their definition of
"RACING": A race is a competition of speed, against an objective criteria, usually a clock. The competitors in a race try to complete a given task in the shortest amount of time. Typically this involves traversing some distance, but it can be any other task involving speed.
OH I get it now..........Different groups will just adopt THEIR OWN definition of the word RACE to suit their own needs! They'll just put the word in their title & then go on to say their NOT about competition or speed?
The CSRG association does absolutely understand one thing correctly when they wrote: "The guys we see on TV are in the seat almost every day, while we might get 10 or 12 hours in a whole season. "
That means you can't possibly compare someone who RACES ............(not just puttering around the track) vintage karts weekly for 21 events that consist of :(2 warm-up sessions/10 laps each+a heat/10 laps+ the feature/15 laps) 45 laps each event x 21= 945 LAPS PER YEAR! That does NOT include any practice laps taken after the days event is over OR any other events at any other tracks during the year! This is driving a vintage kart/engine combination on skinny hard tires! .........to someone who attends maybie 1 or 2 "exhibition" events a year!
Doesn't much matter how many "national championships" you won when it was over 45 YEARS AGO!
Last time I looked the calendar said 2011.
-
ted johnson
- Posts: 1685
- Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2007 7:59 am
Re: Is this what this is about?
Here we go again!
Re: Is this what this is about?
Keep talking Carl..... your posts amuse me. 
-
david a luciani
- Posts: 671
- Joined: Wed Nov 28, 2007 12:05 am
- Vintage Karting items owned: gk800 -r1 -gilson excalibar -rupp concept dual,concept,Cheetah ll, panther -Bug
- User Agreement: Yes
- Location: new haven ct.
Re: Is this what this is about?
Carl,
Please cool your jets.
these guys are concerned mostly about vintage meets and part time drivers.
And it is very real possibility that somebody new to karts or vintage may get hurt without some restraint at these events.
i figure they aren't aware your club still actively races vintage karts with the insurance company aware of the situation.
Guys,
This thread is turning less into comments and discussion about the danger of racing vintage karts by part time or in experienced drivers with every post.
We should focus what to do with the element that wants to change how the karts are set up to go faster by using modern equipment.
Rather than use up all our energy on one incident which was pretty much an accident.
We should be talking about licensing for the dual engined and the faster karts.
We should be getting the tire rules discussed (again!!!
) including the suitability of the newly produced vintage speeds for our karts.
instead we're focusing on one incident that happened at a club with a weekly vintage race schedule.
at first it was a good discussion but it seems that people are getting hot headed and that's not good or neccesary.
Lately, i've heard rumors of people with modern/vintage set ups wiping out and bouncing on the tracks in recent events.
i'd much rather hear about those incidents and what should be done.
Carl's wreck happened to be videotaped so i'm thinking that's why we're still on it.
my two thin cents,
dave
Please cool your jets.
these guys are concerned mostly about vintage meets and part time drivers.
And it is very real possibility that somebody new to karts or vintage may get hurt without some restraint at these events.
i figure they aren't aware your club still actively races vintage karts with the insurance company aware of the situation.
Guys,
This thread is turning less into comments and discussion about the danger of racing vintage karts by part time or in experienced drivers with every post.
We should focus what to do with the element that wants to change how the karts are set up to go faster by using modern equipment.
Rather than use up all our energy on one incident which was pretty much an accident.
We should be talking about licensing for the dual engined and the faster karts.
We should be getting the tire rules discussed (again!!!
) including the suitability of the newly produced vintage speeds for our karts.instead we're focusing on one incident that happened at a club with a weekly vintage race schedule.
at first it was a good discussion but it seems that people are getting hot headed and that's not good or neccesary.
Lately, i've heard rumors of people with modern/vintage set ups wiping out and bouncing on the tracks in recent events.
i'd much rather hear about those incidents and what should be done.
Carl's wreck happened to be videotaped so i'm thinking that's why we're still on it.
my two thin cents,
dave
-
Carl Haydt
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:52 pm
- Vintage Karting items owned: just enough to keep me racing
Re: Is this what this is about?
Rob,Unfortunately I'm not amused by opinions & posts certain people have offered on this subject!
There's a reason this site doesn't see much traffic (as a matter of fact,this post has had the most hits of any for a long time) and I don't need to tell you why. So take some advise here and remove the link you posted (without permission or consent) of my video,lock this thread & move on.
There's a reason this site doesn't see much traffic (as a matter of fact,this post has had the most hits of any for a long time) and I don't need to tell you why. So take some advise here and remove the link you posted (without permission or consent) of my video,lock this thread & move on.
-
Carl Haydt
- Posts: 32
- Joined: Wed Mar 19, 2008 6:52 pm
- Vintage Karting items owned: just enough to keep me racing
Re: Is this what this is about?
Rob,Don't worry about it-I took care of it!
End of discussion-move on! Carl
End of discussion-move on! Carl